July 30, 2006
Inna Khodorkovsky, Mikhail Khodorkovskyís wife
Danila Galperovich: We are very pleased to have with us here Inna Khodorkovsky, Mikhail Khodorkovskyís wife.
Inna Khodorkovsky will be answering questions in Radio Svobodaís Moscow studio from guest-journalists Roland Fritsche, from Germanyís second channel (ZDF), and Masha Gessen, a columnist for Bolshoy Gorod (Big City) magazine.
We begin, as usual, with a short bio of our guest. And here I have to say that all Iíve been able to come up with about her has come from her interviews in various newspapers and magazines. Inna Khodorkovsky, then, is a Muscovite, she went to school in Medvedkovo, she was very fond of chemistry (and probably still is). In 1986 she started night school at the Mendeleev Institute and worked there as a committee member for the Young Communist League. She also met Mikhail Khodorkovsky there. Now they have three children, an elder daughter and two twin sons. Mikhail Khodorkovsky also has an older son. So in total Mikhail and Inna Khodorkovsky have a lot of children.
Once more, welcome to the Radio Svoboda studio, and thank you very much for coming. Itís a great honour. And this is your first interview, I believe, for a radio station broadcasting in Russian - or in any other language, for that matter. Yes?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Yes, itís my first. Actually Iím very pleased to be here and to clarify the situation a little.
Danila Galperovich: The simplest and the most natural question: I want to ask, Whatís your life like now?
Inna Khodorkovsky: More or less exactly the same as it was two and a half years ago. Thatís to say, the situation is unchanged, itís frozen, and thereís unlikely to be any instant turnaround. We are where we were two and a half years ago.
Danila Galperovich: Masha Gessen, please.
Masha Gessen: Could you please elaborate on that. Danila asked whatís your life like now. Are you still living in Apple Tree Village? What do you do in your spare time?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Weíre still there, though how much
longer weíll have to exist - and I mean exist - there, I canít say. The village is pretty well empty. I mean, there are no men there, no two-parent families.
Masha Gessen: Who used to live there? Whatís the difference between then and now?
Inna Khodorkovsky: The people who used to live there are now scattered all over the world and two of them of are in jail.
Danila Galperovich: Who do you mean exactly?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Mikhail and Platon.
Masha Gessen: And the rest are in hiding.
Inna Khodorkovsky: I suppose so.
Danila Galperovich: Roland Fritsche, please.
Roland Fritsche: I donít feel comfortable with the phrase Ďin hidingí..
Masha Gessen: They have a good deal to hide fromÖ
Roland Fritsche: Well, yes, now they want the Israelisí help to catch Nevzlin. Iíd like to ask you: Do you keep in touch with Platonís wife, for example, or with the husband of Svetlana Bakhmina, whoís recently been convicted? Are they of support to you? If youíre in regular contact with them, do you find that helpful?
Inna Khodorkovsky: We obviously have a situation in common and we have plenty to talk about. Weíre in close touch all the time with Platonís wife - thatís to say, we swap news and form a mutual support group. We also live together - up to this point, at least.
Masha Gessen: In the same village, the same house?
Inna Khodorkovsky: No, in the same village. So far in the same village.
Danila Galperovich: As I understand it, Inna, you went on June 6 on your most recent trip to Krasnokamensk. Is that right? Could you tell us about the visit itself, if possible? How is Mikhail doing these days? Perhaps there are little things he tells you about, and thereís some part of his life there you can share.
Inna Khodorkovsky: I canít share in that life because I canít cross the border into it. Itís a no-manís land for me. And the minute I see him. . . I canít say anything now because everything is transmitted, itís not alive, itís information that is in the air, it doesnít mean anything to me.
Danila Galperovich: What do you mean by that?
Inna Khodorkovsky: I mean what they tell you, that everything is fine with him, that he went here or there, he was released from this and that - itís all bloodless information. When I hear something from him or see him - thatís totally different and I trust it more. Iím not saying that I distrust anyone, but I do say that I have the feeling. . .
Danila Galperovich: Itís about another perception, another channel, right?
Inna Khodorkovsky: When I see him I get a feeling of awakening. The rest of the time. . . Even if I hear somethingís happening, I canít do anything about it. When I first went to see him, he had changed. of course. Itís pointless to say whether for the better or worse. Heíd simply changed - and thatís it.
Masha Gessen: Changed in what ways?
Inna Khodorkovsky: He has a different world now. Heís in a totally different world. Heís simply different.
Masha Gessen: What did he tell you when you talked to him? It was your third trip to the colony, wasnít it?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Yes, the last trip was the third. How can I say Ė yes, he simply talked . . We simply talked in an absolutely detached way. We didnít talk about the prison-colony because itís as plain as day, everyone writes about it. If there are any changes there, the Press-centre publishes them and various mass media too. So we just talked, remembered the past more maybe.
Masha Gessen: What past exactly? Is there anything particular you remember?
Inna Khodorkovsky: His memories of the children, where we were, what we did, a few funny episodes. These are purely private moments.
Roland Fritsche: And Mikhail then absorbs this information like a sponge, each piece of news, letís say, from Nastya, Ilya and Gleb. Because I can imagine, for example, that your boys have started drawing and they want you to take their drawings to show to their father. And he must want to see and keep them. You once said you took photos.
Inna Khodorkovsky: I take lots of photos when I go on a visit - thatís allowed. I choose some key moments out of the three months weíve been existing apart and I simply take them to him. He naturally keeps them somewhere - I donít know where exactly, somewhere separate or somewhere on him. Along the way, I show him and tell him where and when and what events we shared in with the children.
Danila Galperovich: O.K., but howís he getting on there in your opinion? I understand that Iím asking about a penal institution thatís very far from Moscow, and that there are any number of legends circulating about it. But what do you know first hand that you think you can tell us?
Inna Khodorkovsky: As far as his daily routine goes, where the prison is doesnít really much matter to him. Itís being able to communicate thatís the most important thing for him. And the worst thing about his remoteness is the fact that his links with the outside world have been more or less entirely broken. Sure, the lawyers visit him and there are people around him - but itís not enough to feed him intellectually. And the regime heís now inured to doesnít give him any kind of sustenance. He simpoly canít exercise or nourish his brain. Nothing else is as important.
Danila Galperovich: Masha Gessen, pleaseÖ
Masha Gessen: I still want to persist with Danilaís question. You say you get reports from the colony that heís been placed here or there, heíd been released from this or that, and that this is somewhat bloodless information. When you talk to him, do you get an understanding of what theyíre doing to him, what they want from him? Are they trying to break him or pretending theyíre trying to? Whatís going on here?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Theyíre breaking him, plain and simple. The methods have been tried out for ages and then refined and re-used.
Danila Galperovich: So you think that even after the verdict and his imprisonment, the punishment isnít over - itís only escalating. Right?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Iíd say it goes like the amplitude of a wave: it intensifies and weakens and then it intensifies again. Thereís no particular peak. Theyíre simply slowly grinding him down into the dust.
Danila Galperovich: Letís come back here again, to Moscow. Can you describe your daily routine, how you live your life these days? How much have your movements changed, for example, around Russia, outside Russia? Whatís the difference? How do these things relate to each other?
Inna Khodorkovsky: First, my children go to school and that takes up a fair part of the day. The elder daughter goes to school and also has extra classes. So thereís a lot on oneís plate. Any parents who have three children or more can identify with this: Itís a constant, non-stop battle. You have to rush off to one appointment and then get back for another. And it goes on and on like this.
Danila Galperovich: Tell us about the children.
Inna Khodorkovsky: Theyíve all grown up a lot over this time. I can see it so plainly. The little boys have become independent, they understand that theyíre men. Theyíve just got back from their first time in holiday camp and I hardly recognized them. I mean I can now imagine the two of them standing up to their mother. I have a feeling Iím the mother of two grown-up sons. Throwing tantrums, any stuff like that, is now absolutely alien to them and to me.
Danila Galperovich: Theyíve been to a childrenís camp and have come back. . .
Inna Khodorkovsky: It Ďs not as if it was some sort of survival camp. It wasnít war, but it wasnít like home. And they coped well. Most importantly, they really liked it.
Danila Galperovich: Was it their first time?
Inna Khodorkovsky: It was their first time, and I was concerned with how they would react. But it was plain sailing for them. I think their social skills have improved, and their communication skills have got better and better every year. Iím very pleased actually.
Roland Fritsche: And your children - Nadya, to start with: Does she feel in any sense a pariah, since Mikhailís case is quite high-profile and universally known? Does she get bullied or pointed at: ĎLook over there, theyíre Mikhail Khodorkovskyís kidsí?
Inna Khodorkovsky: In the schools Nastya and the little boys go to, no-one points at them or marks them out as flawed or something. Yes, she feels that our situation is out-of-the-ordinary and that weíve been put in the spotlight because of it - and that bothers her. But sheís surrounded by people in the school who would never harm her.
Roland Fritsche: So it looks as if Nastya is already gearing herself up for a visit to Krasnokamensk with you in mid-September?
Inna Khodorkovsky: She has to decide on her own. I canít make her. When sheís ready, sheíll go.
Masha Gessen: Tell us, please: What do the little boys make of whatís happened to their father and whoís to blame for it?
Inna Khodorkovsky: I canít say what they make of it. I find it difficult to understand how a childís brain works. They probably donít see it the way adults do, as a tragedy. Naturally it comes across to them as something out-of-the-ordinary, something bad. But actually weíve been living in a vacuum where everyoneís in the same tragic boat.
Danila Galperovich: Do you talk to them about it? Do they ask you about it? And what do you say?
Inna Khodorkovsky: They really only ask about how long theyíll have to wait and when will he come. But Iím non-committal, since I honestly donít know when the whole thing will end.
Masha Gessen: And what do you say?
Inna Khodorkovsky: ĎFirst weíll celebrate New Year and then. . . It comes down bit by bit; it gets smaller and smallerí. Basically theyíre preoccupied with only one thing - when will they see him.
Masha Gessen: And the second part of my question: Since a childís world is organized along very simple lines - there are bad and good guys, and if something bad happens, then someoneís to blame for it - what do they make of this?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Theyíre not in any sense Ďagainstí some other side which started the whole thing off, because they really donít know about it. They know only about Dadís problem, and you donít have to go beyond that Ė these people are right, those are wrong, these people are pro and those are conÖAs you said, their world is quite simple, and thank God they donít have to figure it endlessly out. Well, thatís what I think.
Danila Galperovich: And over the 1000 days since Mikhail Khodorkovskyís imprisonment (now itís actually more), has your social life changed? Has there been any direct tangible pressure? Iím talking about you, your family, the people who used to surround Mikhail Khodorkovsky Ė have there been any manifestations of any sort of pressure, ranging from telephone calls, letters, possible attacks on property - or socially?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Nothing unexpected happened during these 1000 days. Everything played out logically and consistently. Even the property element in it.
Danila Galperovich: Are you talking about the tax claims?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Absolutely. Iím now having to think about where I might rent an apartment. In May they arrested the compound where weíre now living - which is why I said that weíre Ďto this pointí living in Zhukovka. When theyíll start following through - well, I donít know what their plans are.
Danila Galperovich: You dropped a bit of a bombshell saying youíre thinking of renting somewhere. Will that be in Russia? In Moscow?
Inna Khodorkovsky: In Russia.
Dania Galperovich: Might it be closer to where Mikhail Khodorkovsky is now?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Itíll be closer and more convenient to the place where the children go to school, if anything. So long as thereís no plan to move him to a colony-settlement, thereís just no point in moving to join him..
Masha Gessen: The way you describe your talks with the children, with the younger boys and the older daughter, shows you have a remarkably peaceful home. Itís clear that the children - who are going through a family trauma, but who can grasp well enough whatís going on - are blessed with a very calm mother. Do you find time and space for your own troubled feelings? How do you organize things overall?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Of course I have time to myself. And the children donít have to see. . . Well, they can see that their family is going through a rough time, but they
donít have to see the upset in all of it .
Danila Galperovich: But maybe they need to, if only to get a better understanding of whatís going on?
Inna Khodorkovsky: When all this started, Nastya was with me. She saw how upset we all were and she suffered in sympathy - she was on the same wavelength as me. Well, I couldnít bear to see her so troubled, and I had to try and find a way out. And I did. So all the suffering was left behind the door and. . . Yes, of course Iíve got problems given the circumstances I live in. But itís enough that weíre both very emotional. I canít put an extra burden of worry on her.
Danila Galperovich: What do you mean Ė Ďit was left behind the doorí?
Inna Khodorkovsky: There are people I can share the whole thing with and not worry. Theyíre suffering the same way. Itís too early for an adolescent to go through this sort of heavy emotion.
Roland Fritsche: You said, Inna, that you believed they want to break your husband Misha in Krasnokamensk. And Iíd like to know what your response was to the Kuchma incident. Did it come as a shock to you, a warning? Especially after what Karinna Akopovna said the other day, that itís no longer in principle about the days heís survived in the camp, itís about the fact thereís now a real threat to Mikhailís life.
Danila Galperovich: Iím just chipping in to say that the reference here is to lawyer Karinna Moskalenko. Please. . .
Inna Khodorkovsky: I read her interview. The truth is thereís always a threat - itís absolutely terrible, emotionally excruciating. And when I was told what had happened, so many things went through my mind. Like what had really gone on there. And then having to face the fact that you canít run off and see how heís doing and help him - thatís tremendously upsetting.
Danila Galperovich: Can you tell us how you get there? Whatís involved?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Itís just a trek and thatís it. It takes nine hours by plane. I just blank out, though - I get air-sick. Then it takes you fifteen hours by train. And finally a ride in a car.
Danila Galperovich: How much time in the car?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Around forty minutes, depending what station you get out at.
Danila Galperovich: So you get out and what happens?
Inna Khodorkovsky: You go to the hotel, spend the night, and then go on the date.
Danila Galperovich: This is the following day now. How certain are you when you go for the visit that youíre actually going to get it?
Inna Khodorkovsky: I donít really know at all. I mean, yes, there are obviously some statements, confirmations. I did get one confirmation personally: The first message about the first date arrived in the mail. But all the rest Ė I go and then all of a sudden theyíre renovating the building or some such. . . I already told you they can make any excuse - I didnít register or I didnít take stuff away right. It could be anything at all.
Danila Galperovich: Are you talking about the things you bring him?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Yes, everything I bring for the three days. I donít give them to him exactly. Theyíre just the things we use during the three days.
Masha Gessen: One more thing: How do you spend the three days?
Inna Khodorkovsky: You mean, in terms of daily routine?
Masha Gessen: Whatís it like? Not many of our listeners have ever been on a prison date.
Inna Khodorkovsky: Itís like a student dorm, with a shared kitchen, shower and
Masha Gessen: And how many people are there at a time?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Itís full. The whole place is full.
Danila Galperovich: To be specific, do you have separate quarters?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Everyone has his own room - recently renovated and quite decent, given the sort of place it is. The two of us share the same room - just a room, not an apartment as some papers have written - with a table, a sofa and a wardrobe.
Danila Galperovich: The reason my colleagues and I are asking so many questions is that there are lots of people who sympathize with Mikhail Khodorkovsky and whoíre interested in knowing - and many others who perhaps feel sorry for you and what youíre going through and can only guess at it.. Youíre the only first-hand source we have on the subject of how it all happens: the dates and daily routines and so on.
Inna Khodorkovsky: As far as the dates are concerned, thatís true. But I canít say anything. . . though I can see through a small window, of course.
Danila Galperovich: What can you see through the window?
Inna Khodorkovsky: A lot of barbed wire.
Roland Fritsche: Still talking about these visits: When I came to meet you, I had these two opposite images in my head. On the one hand, Mikhail once called you a Decembristís wife [many of the so-called Decembrists, who staged a brief uprising against Romanov rule in 1825 were exiled to Siberia and were followed there by their wives], and on the other hand I always think of Lyudmila Gurchenko in the movie Station for Two where thereís this same kind of date. . .
Inna Khodorkovsky: A good movie.
Roland Fritsche: Itís kind of the same thing. But Gurchenko and Oleg Basilashvili (the leads) had a wonderfully funny time, and in your case - well, yes, itís a meeting - heart beating fast, joy, ĎIím going to see my beloved husbandí. Or is there a down feeling because itís such a limited period of time? What feelings overwhelm you personally and what does Misha feel from his side?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Thereís no tragedy involved. Thereís just the here and now. There are three days to deal with - and thank God theyíre there for us. Thereís no thinking about whether itís good or bad, right or wrong. There are only three days, Misha and. . . the room.
Masha Gessen: Are you left alone or do people come in? How does it work? Do you think about whether or not you should talk in the room?
Inna Khodorkovsky: You mustnít. I mean, you can say whatever you like but the equipment there. . . Still, Iím fine with it. And as forÖ
Masha Gessen: . . . whether youíre left alone or not. . .
Inna Khodorkovsky: Well, apart from the equipment, weíre left alone. That is, weíre left to our own devices. Yes, there are officers on duty, people in charge. But except for Ďgood morningí and Ďgood evening,í thereís no tension or beef between us.
Masha Gessen: And then does somebody come to take you away or do you just leave at a certain time?
Inna Khodorkovsky: At a fixed time - when the three days are over. Itís usually in the morning, and a duty officer comes. Then everything happens in reverse order: First heís taken away, and then itís my turn.
Danila Galperovich: I wanted to ask you if you feel any support. . . Let me put it this way, when I visited the Mikhail Khodorkovsky press-centre website, I saw the volume of support Ė does this come to you personally? Are there people who telephone or send letters to encourage you? Is there anything that comes from the outside world that keeps you going while youíre constantly waiting and raising the kids?
Inna Khodorkovsky: There are enough people who write and telephone - and not just acquaintances. Most of them are people I donít know, who sympathize, simply because theyíve been through something of the same kind. And this is very important: itís sort of a ray of light, some warmth. You read or you listen, and it warms you, simply warms you.
Danila Galperovich: Does this come from Russia mainly, or is there a big body of support from abroad.
Inna Khodorkovsky: From Russia. As for support from abroad, maybe it comes to Marina Filipovna. . . But Iím into Russia - Iím talking about Russia.
Roland Fritsche: Youíve said that in general Mikhail suffers from a kind of spiritual emptiness; and I think that perhaps this was exacerbated when Father Sergei was expelled. When it happened, I was a bit surprised, since I used to know your husband before he was arrested. I interviewed him several times, and I never took him for a believer. Has he in fact become devout since his arrest and during his time in prison? Does he turn to religion more often? Or is he in his daily routine more like a consumer?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Heís always been interested in history and historical processes - and in religion as well. And I think that now heís simply filled in the gaps in his thinking about religion. I think a lot of important things were talked about in his discussions with Father Sergei. Now heís very much into religious literature. Heís not a religious fanatic, heís not obsessed with religion. He has a purely analytical interest in it. But nor is it true that he distances himself from belief. Heís simply started experiencing it in a new way. He used to approach it from a historical angle, but now heís closer to it, I think.
Roland Fritsche: Does he view it as a sort of lifeline?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Heís close to thinking of it that way.
Masha Gessen: Getting back to one of the previous questions, you told us how you learnt about the attack on your husband in the prison colony. What sources of information do you have? Who gives you the news from there? And how much time does this never-ending process take you as a whole?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Process as a whole?
Masha Gessen: Well, I mean the discussions with the lawyers, the decisions about current legal problems.
Inna Khodorkovsky: The legal problems continue, and no doubt thereíll be more of them. As for information and by whom and how itís passed on, thatís of course our lawyersí responsibility. Natalya Terekhova, whoís close to him there, is our usual chief source. She comes out, she calls on the cell phone - thatís it.
Masha Gessen: And how often do you get in touch with her, or she with you?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Whenever necessary. If everythingís quiet, if thereís nothing he says he wants, then fine. But she gets in touch quite a lot.
Danila Galperovich: Iíd like if possible to go back a bit because. . . Well, youíve lived with each other for a long time; youíve got three children and a grown-up daughter. Has it ever struck you that Mikhail is changing? Valery Panyushkin, the author of a book about your husband, devoted almost half of it, I think, to precisely this idea of a spiritual journey, a personal transformation. Because itís been an astonishingly varied life, hasnít it? The way it all began, then big money, then this big country, then what is happening to him now. How do you see all these changes?
Inna Khodorkovsky: In him?
Danila Galperovich: In you, in him, then - because of that - again in yourself and vice versa.
Inna Khodorkovsky: Basic values havenít changed very much. They form, some of them - the foundation for them is set when youíre young and then they later take in more and more. There are times, of course, when something dramatic occurs in your life and you have to rethink them. In fact Iíd say that, given recent events, my values have deepened - or rather Iíve had to re-examine them, though I canít say that theyíve changed in any fundamental way. I think he had a change of values because he was involved in politics and now has a rather different perspective on everything thatís happening. It was naturally a big change.
Danila Galperovich: And before that did you get a sense that he was changing? Was there ever a dramatic turnaround? I remember the book talked about 1998. Did you feel anything at home?
Inna Khodorkovsky: I did feel that he was getting snowed under, that his time was less and less his own. But as a whole, well, the changes werenít very great.
Roland Fritsche: Still on the subject of politics, Iíd like to ask about the parents: Marina Filippovna, Mikhailís mother, and to a lesser extent his father Boris Moiseevich. What do Mishaís parents mean to you? Because theyíre always in the news, and your own parents, who support you, barely get mentioned. So what do they mean to you in general? Are they like rocks? Because from what you say your life has become quite difficult, especially given the hint you dropped about tax officers still being on your case. Do Mishaís parents help you raise the children? Even though they have Koralovo, the boarding school, to deal with, where there are big problems.
Inna Khodorkovsky: Theyíre very strong and tough people. I mean, theyíre like columns - you just look at them and immediately see that we have to persevere. I mean, you may be completely distraught, but then you see this example in front of you, and you know itís O.K., itís going to be O.K.
Masha Gessen: I apologize in advance for asking this question but I canít help it - and you can in fact reply that youíre not going to answer it. But I think that someone whoís going through the sort of things that you are must have your own rationale for everything thatís happened. Do you indeed have a personal version of events?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Yes, I have my own version. Itís about
politics - no question. And I think ambition played its part.
Masha Gessen: Whose ambition?
Inna Khodorkovsky: The opposite sideís. Thatís my view.
Danila Galperovich: Iíll go along with that. Do you consider your husband a political prisoner?
Inna Khodorkovsky: Iíll say again: Itís about politics.
Danila Galperovich: We can take that as a Ďyesí.
Inna Khodorkovsky: Well, yes.
Roland Fritsche: You know that when Platon was arrested, a human-rights activist, who had emigrated from the USSR and now lives in the US, called upon Mikhail to leave the country, obviously anticipating that the same thing would happen to him. Before your husband was arrested, did you talk about getting out, leaving the country? And why in fact did you stay?
Inna Khodorkovsky: We decided together. We saw it was a straight choice between staying and leaving. But the decision was absolute. What is there abroad? Of course nobody would have thought things would turn out so ugly. But as a matter of principle, he was going to live here to the end.
Danila Galperovich: That in fact was the final question. And now Iíd like our guests - I mean, our guest-journalists - to sum up todayís talk. Masha Gessen, please.
Masha Gessen: This is a bit unexpected. . ! First Iíd like to say itís been a great honour. And I think Iíve been really very fortunate. Not only because you, Inna, donít normally give interviews, but also because youíre handling everything you have to put up with extraordinarily well. Itís been a great honour to find this out through talking to you.
Danila Galperovich: Roland Fritsche, please.
Roland Fritsche: First of all, Iíd like to thank you for your openness - as shown today. Also for the fact that for the audience youíre the only person who can give voice to the sorts of feelings you have and pass them on, so that people can identify with you. I think this sort of education is crucial - thereís a book that takes the job on, The Prisoner of Silence - because people these days are trying to see to it that heís forgotten. Today we had a chance to try to counter that.
Danila Galperovich: The opinions expressed here were those of the journalists taking part in Litsom klitsy (Face to Face). To end the programme on a personal note - and Iíd remind you that it was very personal - I want to ask Inna Khodorkovsky something equally personal, if she wouldnít mind. I know that the ring-tone on your phone is a tune. Could you let us hear it?
The sound of Romance, a song by the Russian pop band Delphin:
ĎTell her Iíll come back
Tell her Iíll stay true. . .í
Danila Galperovich: On that personal note we come to the end of Face to Face on Radio Svoboda. Our guest was Inna Khodorkovsky, Mikhail Khodorkovskyís wife.